CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, the hosts discuss the Cavs’ Game 1 performance against the Indiana Pacers, focusing on key themes from the contest.

Takeaways:

• The Cavs face a serious challenge against the Pacers.
• Darius Garland’s injury is a significant concern for the team.
• Donovan Mitchell’s performance is crucial, but he may be injured.
• De’Andre Hunter’s finger injury could impact the Cavs’ defense.
• The Cavs need to improve their defensive discipline.
• Offensive production is directly tied to defensive performance.
• The Pacers’ shooting was an outlier, but the Cavs must adjust.
• Darius Garland’s return could significantly improve the Cavs’ offensive performance.
• Evan Mobley needs to be featured more in the offense for better results, especially if Garland remains sidelined.
• The Cavs struggle to adapt to the Pacers’ fast pace, leading to fatigue.
• A 20 to 4 run by the Cavs showed their potential but wasn’t enough to secure a lead.
• Defensive focus is crucial for the Cavs to regain control of the game tempo.
• Isaac Okoro’s defensive role is vital, but he needs to contribute offensively to stay on the court.
• Shortening the bench could backfire against the Pacers’ fast-paced style.
• Team dynamics and ball movement are critical for the Cavs’ success in the series.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we got a full house for you guys today. Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins, Ashley Bastock. And we are coming to you after the Cavs first loss of the playoffs. Game one, Eastern Conference semifinals against the Indiana Pacers. 121, 112. There’s a lot that went on in today’s game when it comes to injuries, when it comes to schemes, when it comes to adjustments that were made and things that obviously need to be changed going into game two. But Chris, coming away from today’s game, what was the thing that you took away the most, the biggest takeaway from today’s game?

Chris Fedor: Well, guys, I think there were a couple of things. First off, I think there were some outlier things that happened in this game and that usually happens throughout the course of a playoff series. So I know we’re going to touch on some of those outlier things, including Indiana’s three point shooting versus the Cavs. Three point shooting. But the thing that stands out to me is that there is a real pathway to the Cavs losing this series against Indiana. If people didn’t take the Pacers seriously coming into this series, they need to do it now. This is a team that is battle tested. They went to the Eastern Conference finals last year. This is a team that offensively can keep up with the Cavs. This is a team that can win a three point shooting contest with the Cavs. This is a team that has skill, depth, balance, and they provide some matchup problems for the Cavs that they’re going to have to try and look at over the next 24 hours to see what kind of adjustments they want to make, what kind of changes they think they’re going to need to make. But it just feels like to me, you know, there are some advantages that the Pacers have in this series, especially if Darius Garland is not going to play or Darius is going to be limited in any sort of way.

Ethan Sands: So let’s start there. Right? The injury concerns. And obviously it was made clear ahead of today’s game that there are some serious concerns when it comes to Darius Garland’s toe injury and how that could affect him for not just a couple of games, but maybe a couple of weeks. Right. Chris, what are you hearing behind the scenes about Darius? And then we’ll get into the remaining injury factors from today’s game because it was a physical one. If you guys didn’t think Miami was physical enough. Indiana can run and gun with you, but they’ll also get into your body as well.

Chris Fedor: Well, there’s a lot of frustration when it comes to this injury. That’s the. That’s the word that I keep hearing over the last 36 hours or so, because, you know, there are days where it feels like, all right, Darius is going to play, and Darius is going to be good enough to play. And I think a couple of days ago, the Cavs were planning as if they were going to have Darius Garland in this game. And then he goes through the full contact practice. It’s a very positive sign. And then there’s still pain. There’s still an issue that he’s trying to deal with, and he’s not able to practice on Saturday, their final practice before Game one. And the Cavs were talking about how that was managing his workload, not pushing it too much in terms of practice. But my understanding of that is that they just keep getting different feedback from Darius and from the training staff when it comes to this injury. And some days it’s optimism, and other days it’s pessimism. So it’s all about how his toe continues to respond. But the bottom line is this, like, whether Darius suits up or not, this is something that he’s going to have to deal with. And for the type of player that he is, when it comes to the shiftiness, the stop start, the constant cutting, the change of direction, the speed, the quickness, these guys put their feet through hell throughout the course of an NBA season. And now you’re talking about one of the things that makes Darius Garland being special. You’re talking about that thing being a problem for him, that thing potentially limiting him. So I think it’s a combination of things. I think it’s a pain tolerance issue when it comes to Darius. I think it’s also a situation where the Cavs want him to be effective and Darius wants to be effective playing through the injury. And this one for the type of player that he is. You know, toe injuries are nagging to begin with. They’re difficult to play through to begin with. But now you mix in the type of player he is and how he has success of a basketball player, and you start to say, well, this particular injury limits his effectiveness.

Jimmy Watkins: Can I ask a clarifying question here? Because I thought it was really, really interesting that. That Jason Lloyd asked Kenny directly, Jason Lobby Athletic, asked Kenny directly, is it a pain tolerance thing? Kenny. Kenny sort of tap danced around that one for a little bit. I think he said, I don’t know exactly what the medical phrasing is. Maybe I should. Kenny, we know you know what’s going on. Come on now. So how much. My clarifying question is how much of the Cavs frustration, as Chris phrased it, is with Darius.

Chris Fedor: I don’t think it’s as much with Darius. I think it’s as much with the feedback that they keep getting about this particular injury and how it varies from day to day, maybe even hour to hour. I do think it is a pain tolerance thing for sure. When it comes to Darius, I think part of it’s a pain tolerance thing for sure. Everything that I’ve heard is that part of it is a pain tolerance thing. But Kenny’s not going to come out and say that because then we run into this stuff.

Jimmy Watkins: Kenny’s not going to go on the radio after the playoffs or after the Cavs whenever they’re run end and say, I really love the way Luka Doncic is playing through that toe injury in the NBA Finals.

Ethan Sands: So the. The next player that kind of brought a little bit concern was Donovan Mitchell. Obviously, he had 33 points tonight and he was. He took 30 shots as well, and we’ll get to that that a little bit later. But at the end of the game, it looked like Donovan was limping, right? It looked like he was not only exhausted from running up and down the floor with the Indiana Pacers, but it looked like he was physically injured and it looked like he kept grabbing at his knee. Ashley, just how. What were you seeing in those moments and how detrimental would it be? Because we know Donovan is a guy that would play through injuries. But if he’s not at 100% and he took 30 shots and scored 33 points and the Cavs still lost, what does that say about this Cavs team and their chances going forward?

Ashley Bastock: Well, it’s crazy because, Jimmy, at one point in the first half, we were sitting next to each other and he asked me like, does it look like something is wrong with Donovan? And I was like, I kind of want to give it more time. I can’t tell if it’s just because he’s been doing so, so much early. He’s had all these ISO looks, which wasn’t. Wasn’t a huge. I wasn’t personally a huge fan of the shot selection today, but that’s across the board. But like, we were talking about it early in this game, right? And then I think at some point in the third quarter, I was like, yeah, it just looks like he’s not quite moving Right. Like, I don’t initially, to me it just seemed like, okay, maybe workload, maybe week long layoff. But yeah, I mean it, it’s interesting, right? And all Kenny really said to that one was, well, we’ll have status updates tomorrow on guys like him, guys like DeAndre. So to me that means obviously they’re, they’re kind of banged up right now and this is not a team that really had to deal with that much in the regular season. I mean, we had countless discussions about their health is going to be the number one thing. I think that’s still true. I think it’s something that helped them a lot throughout various points of the regular season. But Indiana came and landed the first punch today in a lot of ways. I mean, obviously there were the physical non foul calls, I’ll say that because they were not called fouls even after review in the case of DeAndre Hunter getting shoved in the chest after the ball was released today. But it’s, it’s concerning, I mean, if he’s going to be playing through something because I think right now what we saw tonight, like this team really misses Darius. It’s, it is not to me ideal offense. When you have Donovan Mitchell taking 30 shots and Ty Jerome taking 20, that’s 50 of 98 shot attempts compared to the Pacers that had, I mean, every guy attempted at least one shot and only one guy attempted one shot. So the other 10 guys they played all attempted multiple shots. And I think you saw that, right? You saw a Cavs offense that looked stagnant to me tonight. So I think yes, it’s detrimental if Donovan is hurt and I think it’s also detrimental just having Darius out because Kenny even said it. Like I think he, he recognizes that or thinks he has to do more in that moment. And it’s going to be an issue if you got him and Darius now dealing with something nagging.

Ethan Sands: And it was clear to me after, and you mentioned DeAndre Hunter and that’s where I’m going now is like when he fell, it looked more like he would have hurt his back or something, but instead he was grabbing his hand. And as Chris texted our subtexters earlier today, it looked like or there are indications that he had to get his finger popped back into place. Jimmy, we know the guy said he’s going to be ready for Game 2, but he was just getting on the right path for his offensive game and we know how important he is to the defensive scheme for the Cavs. DeAndre Hunter had to get his finger popped back into place. That’s not a good sign for anybody when you talk about basketball and everything you have to do with your hands. What do you think about this situation and how Hunter is going to have to bounce back even if he’s not at 100%.

Jimmy Watkins: So as we wrap in this conversation, I have formulated two big picture takes about this series based a little bit off this injury stuff. Number one, we can say till we’re blue in the face that the Pacers shot better than we thought they would today. And shock what Kenny was saying. Like within the first half they had the sec. We were there in the second percentile of shot quality. I don’t care. I don’t care. They made the shots and they won the game and they only have to do it three more times and now half your roster is injured. That’s an over exaggeration. But like everybody, it seemed Evan Mobley, DeAndre, Hunter, Donovan, Mitch. There’s a lot of important players all of a sudden dealing that and this is how weird stuff happens in the playoffs. I think the Pacers probably won’t keep shooting 50% from 3 the rest of the series. I think Andrew Nemhardt is a great stat from the indie star beat writer Dustin Dorak. Doperak was just handed this one out in the postgame media room. Andrew Nemhard had zero regular season games with I think with three or more three pointers made or something like that. He’s got like three in the playoffs already and today he’s making the crazy step back shot from the wing. Like what, what’s going on out there? That for sure outlier stuff happening, but now some other stuff is happening that, that would make me a little bit more concerned than just shot quality, shot quality, shot quality, all that stuff. Also, are the Cavs going to score 70 points in the paint again in the series? I don’t know the answer to that one either. There’s things you could say on both sides. That’s one thing. Number two, the Darius injury and particularly to Ashley’s point about like the shot distribution. I think you could argue as much as they need Darius to be another horse out there and score, I, I think you could argue that they need him as much to be that stabilizing shot distributor. Like look, Tyree, what’s the difference between the Cavs, who had two players take almost more than half their shots right, and the Pacers? The Cavs don’t have their point guard. Pacers have one of the best table setting point guards in the league. It’s no coincidence to me that that the Pacers have. Are such. Are such a good team up and down the roster because they play with Tyres Halliburton, six players and double figures two more. And with seven points. Say that again.

Chris Fedor: Wait, wait. What’s that? What’s that?

Ethan Sands: Jimmy? Say that again.

Chris Fedor: I’m sorry, I didn’t hear you.

Jimmy Watkins: In praise of Tyrese Halliburton. First of his name. First of his name. I don’t think those two things are coincidence. The six players, double figures two more and seven point. That reflects positively on your point guard. Meanwhile, the Cavs a little bit more scattered shot because their organizer is dealing with a toe injury. That’s take number two.

Chris Fedor: I think the big thing when it comes to Darius is it just changes the matchups and it changes the math for Indy. I think they came into the series understanding that if Darius was going to be right, they were going to be more stressed on the defensive end of the floor because they’re good with Andrew Nemard dealing with Donovan Mitchell. They’re fine with that. Andrew Nemhard held Donovan Mitchell to 1 of 10 from the field in his matchup. By the way, two points, two for Donovan Mitchell against Andrew Nemhard. Nemart is one of the best defenders in the entire NBA. He did this last year in the playoffs. He did it in the first round. He did it all throughout the course of the regular season. He was in the 90th percentile as an on ball defender. He’s going to bother Donovan. He’s not going to shut Donovan down. Donovan’s a great offensive player. He is a dynamic offensive player. There are matchups that Donovan’s going to win in this series moving forward, of course, and there are going to be times where he’s going to get the better of Andrew Nemhardt. But the Pacers feel good about that matchup, right? If it’s Darius out there instead of Sam Merrill, now all of a sudden they have a decision to make. Do we keep Nemhard on Donovan? Do we put Nemhard on Darius Garland? Do we put Aaron Neesmith on Donovan? Like what do we do with each individual matchup? And the truth is Darius Garland stresses a defense a different kind of way than Sam Merrill does. Duh. Like they put Tyrese Halliburton on Sam Merrill and they had no issues with that whatsoever. That was a place for Tyrese Halliburton to hide. By the way, the Cavs went at Tyrese Halliburton late in the fourth quarter and he shut their water off. Multiple times. So I don’t know that, like, he’s huntable, relentlessly type Trae Young defender here. He’s got length, he’s got athleticism. He blocks Rome helmet, Trey Young.

Jimmy Watkins: I’m back. Wait, no. Trae Young. I’m back now.

Chris Fedor: There we go. He blocked Ty Jerome. How many times? He blocked, you know, Max Stru. How many times? So it’s like there’s just a place where Indiana can put him. And it’s different if Darius is out there, because now all of a sudden, the defense has to make more decisions. Now all of a sudden, Rick Carlisle has to make more decisions about what is he going to do with his matchups with those individual defenders. But if Darius isn’t out there, I’m sure Indiana feels great about their ability to guard the Cavs. They feel great about Pascal Siakam and what he can do defensively against Devin Mobley. And it doesn’t mean that he’s going to win that matchup every single time, but it means they don’t have to overreact on the defensive end of the floor. They can stay consistent with what they want to do defensively. They can keep their defensive integrity in place because they feel good about some of their individual matchups. If it’s Darius instead of Sam Merrill, if it’s Darius instead of Ty Jerome, it’s a different kind of situation. There’s just a different level of defender that is going to be required to neutralize Darius that Indiana certainly didn’t have to worry about in tonight’s game.

Ethan Sands: And you mentioned overreacting, Chris, and I think that’s exactly how the Cavs did. Not emotionally, but defensively. Right. They continuously were caught over helping, which allowed the. The Indiana Pacers to get open looks, right? Whether it was Jared Allen trying to help out on the interior or whatever. As Jimmy mentioned, this is a big portion as to why the Cavs won the paint battle as significantly as they did the Cavs and 70 points of the paint. The Indiana Pacers had just 38, but I think they. They were. They’re known for spraying kicks, right? Or driving kicks. And I think the importance of that is you can’t get caught doing too much of either one like that. For me, there were so many different times where you look down on the court and you see guys like turning around, looking around and trying to figure out whose man is that, who are you? Who is supposed to be guarding him, who was supposed to rotate over. Like, for me, it’s just. It’s unfortunate to see for this Cavs team that continues to call itself at defense, first team when. Sure, this is supposed to be a run and gun series. Sure, you’re supposed to be getting up a whole lot of points, but if you don’t stop Indiana, that doesn’t matter, right? Especially in a game like tonight where you’re not hitting threes, where you’re not hitting shots at all. Because even in the mid range, it felt like these guys were struggling. I mean, Aaron Neesmith, Andrew Nemhard and Benedict Matheran combined for 12 threes. The Cavs had nine tonight. Ashley, just how important is it for the Cavs to clean up their defensive approach? Especially saying that they feel like they figured something out in that second half that they’ll be able to try and address and apply in game two?

Ashley Bastock: I mean, it’s everything, right? I felt like especially early today, they looked terrible on that end of the floor. They were falling for pump fakes, they were out of position, they were getting beat off the dribble. They were allowing Indiana to just totally dictate on that end. And yeah, okay, things were a little better in the second half. But the sequence I wrote about in my zero column, zero story, whatever, is from the fourth quarter, there were about three minutes to go. Donovan had it just, to me summed up the game, right? Like, Donovan had an ISO look on the left wing. He takes a couple of hard dribbles, he goes for the finger roll, it’s short. Miles Turner gets the rebound, throws it up the court to Pascal Siakam, he gets a layup, and all of a sudden you’re back to. To being down 8 when you had just been up to like a few minutes before. So that, to me is like, they’re obviously, this is like the most duh, common sense take ever, but your offensive production is tied to your defensive production. Like, you don’t have the first one without the second one. And you can’t just let the other team do whatever they want and say, oh, well, we play fast enough, we can score enough points. I mean, at the college level, that’s why Alabama basketball didn’t win a national title this year, right? Like, it doesn’t work. It does not work. So I really just think, like, yes, shooting from three was bad, but it’s a chicken or the egg situation. Like, was it bad because you guys just didn’t have your shots today, or was it bad because you were letting Indiana do whatever they wanted on the other end and then you’re scrambling and you can’t get set up in Your offense the same way. Like I think that that to me was the real root cause of everything.

Chris Fedor: It’s always funny to me because, you know, we’ve had these conversations so many different times throughout the course of the regular season. Well, maybe so many as a stretch because the Cavs were the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. They won 64 games and there weren’t that many losses to break down. But when they lost games and we had these conversations, Kenny Atkinson always like, hey, they shot over expected. Hey, they shot over expected. Hey, they shot over expected. It’s like at some point, like your defense plays a part in that. Your closeouts, you’re over helping your discipline.

Ethan Sands: Right?

Ashley Bastock: Like you should be expecting it. Yeah, you should be expecting it. Is whose job do you think it is to expect it? It is your job.

Jimmy Watkins: Your defense is performing under expected. How about that?

Chris Fedor: I mean, Indiana took. How many shots did Indiana take tonight? It took 83 shots. Do you know how many of the Cavs contested Statistically, according to NBA.com of the 83 shots that Indiana took, the Cavs contested. 30. 30. That is a horrendous number. And then if you look at Indiana’s three point shots, they took 36 of those, right? Like I get it. Andrew Nemhard usually doesn’t make five threes. Aaron Neesmith probably doesn’t shoot like this every single game in the series. But like if he’s going to take warm up jumpers, he’s going to make those. And I don’t think they contested a Single Aaron Neesmith three pointer. The number of contested three point shots that the Cavs had tonight, 14. 14 of the 36. Like we’re not in Miami anymore, folks. This is a team that if you give them open looks, if you allow them to be comfortable, if you give them rhythm jumpers, they’re good enough to make them and they did tonight. And if the Cavs give Aaron Neesmith a lot of the looks that they gave him tonight, and I know it’s hard, this is a difficult team to defend. Indiana is a top 10 offense for a reason. Indiana had the best offense in the entire playoffs last year. The best. And they had the second best offense in the playoffs coming into tonight’s game. There’s a reason why they’re so difficult to defend and you do in some ways have to pick your poison, but you can also close out a little bit better. You can also make these things a little bit more difficult on Indy. And if you give Andrew Nemhard some of the quality looks that he got in tonight’s game. If you do that again in Game 2. And the same thing for niece Smith and the same thing for Obi Toppin and Benedict Matheran. They’re capable of making those shots at a high level. Maybe not to the same exact level because, you know, you can’t predict what happens in game one happening again in game two. But those are looks that, that Indiana will burn you with, and they’ll do it the entire series if the Cavs aren’t more disciplined on the defensive end of the floor.

Jimmy Watkins: I found it pretty interesting that when we were talking about before the series began, there’s a lot of talk about, you know, obviously we were asking about Indiana’s pace a lot because that’s their defining characteristic. And, you know, Kenny was like, well, what. What is pace really?

Ethan Sands: You know what I mean?

Jimmy Watkins: Like, is it. What do you say before the game? Like, I wish we could just. I wish we could just say, like, pace is the average time you shoot.

Chris Fedor: You.

Jimmy Watkins: You shoot on the shot clock or something like that, right within a possession. It’s like, I mean, that’s. That’s kind of what it is because if you shoot earlier, you’ll have more possessions. I digress. But this whole. This whole idea that, like, pace could be defined so many ways. Well, after the game, Kenny’s saying, yeah, I’m not sure we were ready for them to play that fast or we were ready for how fast they play. Like, like, it’s one thing to. To watch it, it’s another to experience it. Right? And he’s. He said something about questioning the way he prepared for it. You know, both Donovan and Evan said, you know, nobody practices at this bit. Like, you can’t really replicate it because they don’t. Nobody else does it every day. The basers live and breathe. Rick Carlisle wears a moniker on his quarter zip that says drive and kick. They live it. Yeah, they live it every day. And again, I do think there is some credence to outlier shooting. Some of these shots that are uncontested or uncontested on purpose. Like, you have to choose places where you, like, Indiana stretches your defense so much, you, you just. Okay, if it gets to this point where, you know, I don’t know, 30, low 30s, three point shooter is open, we’ll live with that. You can take that shot. But. But still, there’s like that. We’re at this weird intersection of basketball right now where the, you know, the old school versus the new school that, like, Kenny’s an interesting case Study in this where he’ll sight shock quality a lot. He draw. He can. I feel like Kenny can look at a. As much as he knows the game, the ins and outs and is a film watcher, all that stuff. Kenny values box scores. Kenny values numbers to a higher degree than some coaches. Rick Carlisle is sitting and I asked him a question about three point attempts and, and paint points after the game. And you know how, how much that was by design, you guys. I’m thinking you allowed a lot of pay points. The Cavs didn’t make a lot of threes. Is that part, is that part of your defensive strategy here? Or at least was it today? And he kind of just threw it away. He goes, yeah, I think, I think we do too much of looking at a stat sheet and drawing conclusions in basketball. I think that’s, that’s kind of an interesting contrast. Now, of course Rick Carlisle knows about shot quality. Said. Said that they got a little lucky actually on that front tonight. Like their shot, their shot making was a little crazy. He said that. And Kenny, of course, is a big film watcher and player development. That’s his roots, hands on coaching. But I just think that that’s. I don’t like when, when we start talking that way, we start saying it’ll, it’ll regress. I don’t think that’s. It’s not, it’s not as needed an explanation of an explanation as it sounds.

Chris Fedor: I just think the Cavs need to be more disciplined defensively. You know what I’m saying? Like, we’ve been through this whole thing throughout the course of the year with the Cavs going up and down and up and down and when it comes to their defense and like they were in the top 10, they were out of the top 10, they were back in the top 10, then they were back out of the top 10. And like that’s going to, that’s going to play itself out over the course of 82 games. But this team specifically that they are playing, this team that they are playing, and that’s all that matters right now. This matchup, like, they make you pay for every little mistake. They stress your defense in a way that some of these other teams can’t. And the Cavs are going to have to make some decisions when it comes to their lineup stuff and it comes to their strategy, especially on the defensive end of the floor.

Ethan Sands: So just a quick stat. The Pacers made 19 or more threes just five times this year. Right? So sure, you could say shouldn’t over expected. There’s the stat to back it up, right? They had 19 of 36 today. They shot 52.8% from beyond the arc. The other stat that is interesting to me is the Cavs, obviously as Chris mentioned earlier, only had 18 losses. Half of those came when they shot below 30% from 3. Right? How important is that for them? They shot just 23.7% from deep today, 9 of 38 as referenced earlier. And we don’t want to keep going back and forth with this, the defense and the offense, as Ashley said, really well, the ticket or the ED situation. But like what is the biggest adjustment that needs to be made? Obviously defense is crucial, but what do they do differently? Because I feel like we’ve been having, as Chris mentioned, the same conversation. So what changes? What’s different? Or do the Cavs just need to shoot the ball better in game two for them to have a chance at winning this game, winning the series and figuring out if they can beat Boston because if they’re having trouble with Indiana, I got some bad news for y’all.

Ashley Bastock: So like I do think it just kind of comes down to it has to start on the defensive end of the floor. Like all week with these guys we’ve been talking about Indiana so different. They play so much five out. Like this isn’t. These aren’t things they didn’t know. Right. But these are things they haven’t seen a lot and gotten to put into practice a lot. And this is also a team. Yes, the Cavs played the Pacers four times this year, but you can essentially throw all four of those games out. Two of them happened before the Cavs traded for DeAndre Hunter and the last two happened when the Cavs had already clinched the east in April. And like no one played. I mean the second one is infamously the double overtime season finale where no one played except Jared Allen for 43 seconds to keep his 82 game streak left. So they can say and talk in the lead up all they want that they know it’s a five out offense and you but like you just have to play different defensively. You have to be at your most fundamentally sound and not be in the wrong spot and not falling for pump fakes and having help at the midline. Like you have to do the most basic things and I totally see why it’s such an effective way to wear down an NBA defense because a lot of times we know these fundamentals are going to be like one of the first thing that falls by the wayside. So I do think that is truly a big part of it because when you’re going to live and die by the three, you better not let the other team hit 19 of them. That’s not going to help.

Ethan Sands: Anybody else. Got thoughts on. On what other areas the Cavs need to make adjustments in or did Ashley cover it up?

Chris Fedor: I think they need to play DeAndre Hunter more at the four. I feel like I’ve been talking about this all season long, but in this series in particular, I think they need his skill, I think they need his athleticism, I think they need his length and I think they need to play him at the four. And I understand the concerns with that because Pascal Siakam is on the other side of that. But you got DeAndre Hunter in part for his lineup, versatility for his skill set, three level scoring, but also his isolation defense. So trust him. See if he can do it. I just think if. If Indiana is going to get into situations where they’re bringing Jared Allen into the actions and the Cavs are so willing to switch because they are switch heavy defense, it’s going to be Jared Allen against Tyrese Halliburton, and that’s advantage Indiana or it’s going to be Andrew Nemart against Jared Allen, and that’s advantage Indiana. Because Indiana wants Jared Allen away from the basket. Indiana wants Jared Allen away from the paint. Jared’s not as effective there. Everybody knows that. So I think there’s going to have to be more stretches throughout the game where the Cavs are willing to go away from the too big look of Evan Mobley and Jared Allen because I think there are more advantages that Indiana gains when it comes to their offense attacking the Cavs defense. Then there are advantages that the Cavs gain offensively, having Evan and Jarrett on the floor together. Like the whole idea is okay. Like, yeah, plays in our favor too, because we have the size, we have the strength, we have the offensive rebounding, we have the paint points and stuff like that. But I just don’t know. I don’t know that there’s enough of a benefit for the Cavs from that standpoint. So that’s one of the things that I think they have to look at. I also think they have to look at not switching as much and I totally understand why they want to switch. I do. And look, the Cavs mixed in a bunch of different things. Defensively, they went to a box and one at one point they went to another zone, they played coverage, they switched. But I just don’t know that the Cavs have enough individual defenders in the switch heavy scheme to neutralize this kind of offense that they’re playing against. So those are two things that stand out to me and you know, Darius Garland, to me, if he can play and be effective, it remedies some of the stuff that we saw that was problematic for the Cavs on the offensive end of the floor. I’m not saying it fixes everything, but I think it remedies enough of that that, that you feel like, you know, the Cavs scoring 112 points and making nine threes in a game. You feel like those are outlier stats that are going to self correct.

Jimmy Watkins: Another thing about that I’m not sure like Darius. I assume Darius will play in game two or very or as soon as possible. We also would. I mean particularly given what we were saying about the injury. It’s unpredictability.

Ashley Bastock: It’s.

Jimmy Watkins: I don’t. The dynamics at play there. We don’t know what Darius is gonna look like when he comes back.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, right.

Jimmy Watkins: And to that point I would just like to. I wrote this as one of my takeaways after the game. I would like to reiterate that it is time to feed Evan Mobley. Evan Mobley particularly. Particularly.

Ethan Sands: Wow.

Jimmy Watkins: Words are hard in this. In these moments where Miles Turner is on the bench and the backup center is Obi Toppin or Pascal Siakam or Thomas Thomas. We saw Thomas Bryant. We did a little bit, a little bit of Thomas Bryant today. Not a ton, but some. You just gotta give him the ball. Like the shot distribution point that Ashley made tied to Rome, 20 shots. He probably also felt in Darius’s absence. Yeah, I gotta do more, but I think Evan can do a lot of this stuff. Like nine for 13. When you’re got. When one of your best players is 9 for 13 and has 20 points. My first question is why wasn’t. Why wasn’t he 11 for 18? Yeah, why? Like, I think because there’s a thing with. Because when big men score, it’s not. You don’t think of them as much of as having a hot hand necessarily because when a guard. When a guard is going, it’s just obvious they’re making great. Sometimes they’re making crazy shots, sometimes they have all these crazy dribble combos. It’s. It is when Evan Mobley is rolling to the rim and finishing. If he’ll throw down some dunks. His three pointers improved. He’s. He’s an impressive player. But sometimes he, he could just sleepwalk into 16 to 18 points with how easy he can get some of these baskets. But he really had it going tonight, I thought. And there were just moments like, I think during the second quarter, there’s. It’s like a second unit kind of grew up group out there. Ty Jerome and Evan are, I guess the. Your two main offensive hubs in that moment. Just thought he could get the ball more. Thought he could get the ball more in those moments, and that will continue to be true. I don’t. I really don’t think there’s such thing as too much featuring Evan Mobley in this series on offense.

Ethan Sands: Chris, do you think this team can adapt to the pace, to the speed that they play with? Obviously, we’ve talked about it, like, you don’t really know how bad it can get until you play against it. And obviously, like, not just Donovan was exasperated, but like multiple other players were clearly gassed throughout different portions of this game because of getting back on defense, trying to get on offense, and at points. Like Ty Jerome would be arguing with a ref and then miss his man running back on offense after not getting a foul call. I think there’s no time for anything. You can’t complain, you can’t celebrate, you can’t do anything. And it kind of.

Jimmy Watkins: Nico Harrison ain’t running this team. Todd Roman be on the next play into the Lakers.

Ethan Sands: And this Cavs team is just like, what they do so well is getting to enjoy beating up on other teams. They’re not getting to do that in this series.

Chris Fedor: There was a moment from tonight’s game that, that I thought was really, really, really telling. And I thought it was really important. And it was almost like the Cavs had this look of, oh, oh, bleep. Like the Cavs went on a 20 to 4 run in the third quarter. 20 to 4. And a lot of that was they were getting stops and they were getting the rebounds and they were pushing in transition, and Donovan was just going bulldozer and he was working his way to the free throw line. A lot of his points during that time were just getting out in transition and press pressing the defense as much as he possibly could. But they went on a 20 to 4 run. The arena is roaring. The towels are waving. It’s game one of the Eastern Conference semifinals. That’s what the Cavs do, right? They go on these flurries. Lesser teams don’t handle that. Lesser teams crumble. And Indiana just calmly responds to it. Miles Turner makes a three right before the buzzer at the end of the third quarter. And despite the Cavs going on that 20 to four run, that just is the kind of run that makes a lesser opponent. Wilt Indian is leading going into the fourth quarter after all that. And I think the Cavs had a look of like, oh, Jesus, they’re still here. Like, what do we have to do? Like, if a 20 to 4 run is not enough for us to take the lead going into the fourth quarter, like, what do we have to do? Like, I thought that was a championship level big boy response by Indy that showed why they went to the conference finals last year. I think it showed why, like, they’re fully capable of winning this series against the Cavs. Like, there’s a legitimate pathway to them winning the series against the Cavs. I don’t think it’s time to panic. I don’t think there’s any reason to overreact. We do this thing when watching playoff games where one team wins and, like, in your mind, like, I can’t see how the other team’s gonna win. Like, this team, like, everything that they did, they’re just gonna be able to do. And it doesn’t work that way. Every game is a fresh start and there is no carryover. But, like, Indiana’s tough man. They are mentally tough. And for them to respond to that 20 to 4 blitz from the Cavs, I thought that was big time. And I think that showed the Cavs, like, what they’re in for in this series. But can the Cavs respond? Of course the Cavs can respond. Can they find a way to get the tempo and the pace of the game back in their favor? Absolutely. And to me, it starts on the defensive end of the floor. Like, that’s what fueled their 20 to 4 run. They got stops, and they were able to push the pace. They got stops, they were able to get out in transition. They got stops, they were able to work against a not set defense of Indy. And I know Indy is not the greatest defense in the NBA. It’s not like they’re playing against the Thunder, but as I talked about already, like, their individual matchups that Indy feels good about. So if the Cavs have to work over and over and over again to get Donovan Mitchell the hell off of Andrew Nemhardt, and he’s fighting through all these screens and they have to run all these different actions, that’s exhausting. And I felt like at times like it was more of a chore for the Cavs to get quality offense than what you would expect against a defense in Indiana that came into this game with the reputation that it has. So if they’re Able to get stops and get out in transition and not have to work against that set defense and not have to make Donovan have to work against Andrew Nemhardt every single time. Because if you’re getting in transition, there are more cross matches. Like, that’s going to be advantageous for the Cavs. And that’s why, like, to me, the focus over the next couple of days has to be on the defensive end of the floor. And some of the lineup decisions that Kenny Atkinson considers to me have to be on the defensive end of the floor. Not to say that, you know, like, it. It. It’s only about defense, but, like, a little bit more of a balance to see if you can get the game back in the tempo that you’re more comfortable with, rather than the one that Indy’s most comfortable with.

Ethan Sands: And just the point that to go back to what Evan or what Jimmy was saying about Evan Mobley, like, he also said that he kind of landed weird in the injury. Like he. He has something to then.

Chris Fedor: No, he was limping in the locker room. Oh, there was a noticeable limp from Evan Mobley in the locker room going to the showers.

Ethan Sands: So it’s everybody and obviously it’s the playoffs, but, like, everybody can’t be injured. That’s. That’s the hardest part of all of this. And I think when we talk about different players needing to step up and Chris, you and I had this conversation last night. The defensive aspect is going to be huge. And Isaac Okoro seems like the guy that he had some good, decent minutes tonight, but he still didn’t make the shots that we needed him to make. He sure did get in the transition. Like I talked about, he didn’t have a good cut to the basket, all these things. But I think sometimes, especially in a game where you have two guys combined for 50 shots, maybe you’re not worried about Isaac taking or not taking or not making threes because his whole role would be on the defensive end. What do you guys think about Isaac’s role in this series, Isaac’s role tonight, and how that can impact prove. Jimmy.

Jimmy Watkins: Think I agree with what you’re saying, but I. I feel it. I agree with it more if we’re talking about DeAndre Hunter.

Chris Fedor: That’s right. That’s right.

Jimmy Watkins: The old, the old playoff adage too.

Chris Fedor: Slanted one way when it comes to, like, there’s just not enough of.

Jimmy Watkins: I think as we. As we go through this ser. This, you know, watching it tonight, I’m trying not to overreact, but I sure. I think it could be a longer series certainly than I anticipated. I picked Cavs in five. The old playoff adage is for coaches trust eight. Or was it trust eight, players play seven. Something like that. I think we, we are going to start seeing the. We’re gonna really start testing the limits of Kenny’s trust in these, these back end of the bench reserve guys like Isaac Koro got 15 minutes tonight. You know, we, we will say it again. Isaac Coro is a destructive defender. He can do a lot of things to, to hurt an offense. And if, you know what if the Cavs can, if they find a formula. Isaac Coro is helping you get enough stops where now the Cavs are the team controlling the pace and running out in transition away. Okay, I’m open to hearing it. But if they don’t have, if you don’t have to guard them like it’s just. It’s a hard reality to avoid. I think I’m very curious. What, what, what happens to the Sam Merrill minutes as we go forward in this series with Darius? I get it, Kenny, that you love what Sam. The advantages that Sam Merill creates off the ball. And he’s, he’s a pressure reliever because of the spacing that he provides. He needs to make more shots if that is going to be his primary value. I mean what he shoot tonight? Two for five. Two for five from.

Ethan Sands: From three.

Jimmy Watkins: That is 40%. But for a guy who you’re spot starting over your all Star, like more volume. More of that. More of that. How many, how many minutes did Sam Merrill. Six minutes. Six minutes in the second half is what I was looking at.

Chris Fedor: Second half.

Jimmy Watkins: Six minutes in the second half is what I was looking up. So maybe you’re already starting to see that. Dean Wade. I love Dean Wade as a defender. Pascal Su Yakim did not enjoy his experience on Dean Wade Island. At times tonight I thought he was really good in that regard. You gotta, you gotta take shots, man. You just have to. Or, or you get DeAndre Hunter, assuming he’s healthy enough to do it. He played 30 minutes tonight. What if DeAndre Hunter just plays 38 minutes, 35. Like we really just start going big boy playoff rotation here. Donovan Mitchell played slowest toggler of hoops OMG in the world over here. 34 minutes. Right? And now again, I agree. I thought he looked weird out there physically that there’s like a couple, like so many. He left so many shots short, including some of these like in the lane floaters that you just, you write them, you start marking them down. As soon as you see him get any shots and he leaves him short, I thought that was really strange. I thought he had a couple of moments where he was really, he stopped. Deep breaths, hunched over, just didn’t look all the way right to me. But if he’s right about, how about 40 minutes from your best player? Like, let’s get some, let’s get some playoff type rotate. Like, if we’re taking the Pacers seriously, that’s what we’re saying, right? So do that, do that. Play your best players more.

Chris Fedor: So the only problem with that, the only pushback that I have with that is they play so fast, they wear you out so much.

Jimmy Watkins: That’s fair.

Chris Fedor: It requires so much to deal with their offense, mentally and physically that. Is this really the series where you want to shorten the bench? And I totally understand what you’re saying about, look, if you’re going to be out there, you’ve got to be effective. And you know, there are some guys who probably deserve more minutes, but I just don’t know that this is the series where you really want to start cutting out guys just because of how exhausting it is to play against this Pacers team. And over the course of a seven game series, and that’s what it’s going to be. First team to four over the course of a seven game series. You know, Kenny said something the other day that I think kind of went overlooked. He said he was watching back the series last year between Indiana and New York and he felt like the Pacers completely wore down New York by the end of it. And I think like it’s in his head about how fast they are, the pace that they play with, the attention to detail, the focus, like everything that you have to put into slowing down this offense, this Indiana offense, I think it’s in his head of, oh my God, I have to play my depth, I have to trust these guys because I do not want a repeat of what happened to the Knicks last year against the Pacers, where the Knicks felt like, hey, we’ve got to play our guys more. And look, the Knicks were dealing with injuries and stuff like that, but the bottom line was like the Knicks, we got to trust our guys. Like there are a certain number of guys that we trust and we got to go with them. And he feels like over the course of the series that New York wore down and I think he’s worried about that happening to the Cavs if they shorten this thing a little bit too much.

Jimmy Watkins: Really good point. I think there’s another Steve Kerr overlap here with Kenny. People for years have been shouting a Steve career. Why is Steph Curry only playing? Yeah, you know, 35 minutes in some of these playoff games. It’s like, you seen that guy play, like all he does is run the entire time. He is sprinting around screens non stop every time they have and defenses hunt the crap out of him. At the other hand, that dude, he is even at like, what is how old you now? 37. One of the most well conditioned athletes I’ve ever seen. But Steve Kerr, that’s another coach who shares this idea of like playoff series are cumulative and things that you do in game one to work to wear on a team can show up in game six. We talked about this a little bit before the shoot. I think that’s why Kenny has installed the offense. He has like, that’s the Cavs off with all the moving and cutting which we didn’t see as much of tonight. All that stuff is really taxing both mentally and physically. Keeping track of everyone around screens and stuff is taxing mentally. Running and chasing them is. Is tasking physically. And I feel like Steve Kerr believes that he has that. That’s the war. Some of the warrior success over the years has been wearing teams down over the course of series. So it makes a lot of sense to me that Kenny, someone who was Steve Kerr’s right hand man for the last few years, has. Is keeping that in mind as he plans this series.

Ashley Bastock: And to the point about like, should Donovan be playing more like specifically to that point? I know we just mentioned it, but like he looked gassed at points to me today.

Chris Fedor: Yep.

Ashley Bastock: And actually the story I’m writing tomorrow about the, the three point shooting percentage. I was looking for a photo and John Koontz got this amazing. Or photographer John Koontz got this amazing shot of Donovan walking back to the bench. Just, I mean you can see the sweat on his face, his hands are on his head. The universal sign for I’m tired and he just looks gassed. Like there’s no other way to put it. Like to. So I, I probably fall in line with what you’re saying, Chris. Like, I get it and like there’s an excellent argument I think to be made on both sides because like, to Jimmy’s larger point, there’s not gonna be a Boston if you don’t figure out Indiana. Like, like there won’t be a Boston series to work worry about. But like at the same time, do I need more, like, do I need 40 minutes of 13 of 30? Donovan Mitchell tonight. No. But like, I think it’s an idea potentially worth exploring if obviously Donovan is really hot. And. And to Chris’s point, just quite honestly, yes, I will take more of DeAndre Hunter, please. Thank you so much. He, I think, could be the X factor in this series. I know Chris, you basically wrote a whole story on that. I think it’s huge that they haven’t seen him on this Cavs team. So I will take more of that. But I think you do want to be wary when it’s game one. Your all star point guard is not healthy and not didn’t play in this game of wearing down Donovan Mitchell because it’s gonna. It’s gonna get ugly fast if he is also injured or just too tired to function the get out of the second round. Finally, for the first time in his career.

Ethan Sands: I got flashbacks to last year, guys, when watching Donovan Mitchell. I got flashbacks to him fighting through his lingering knee injury while trying to pull the Cavs to victory against the Boston Celtics when they didn’t have Jared Allen, another all star caliber player. Right. And in this game now, you’re talking about all the players that we’ve left listed already. Whether it’s Evan Mobley, whether it’s DeAndre, whether it’s Darius, whether it’s Donovan, all of these injuries piling up. You don’t need 30 shots from an injured individual.

Ashley Bastock: He took double the shots of any pacer. The most shots a pacer took tonight was 15. I don’t think we laid it out that explicitly, but Pascal Siakam and Halliburton each took 15 shots.

Jimmy Watkins: Middle ground. The Donovan Mitchell conversation. Yes, the pace is fast. Yes, he’s laboring. This is. I’m looking at his playoff basketball. I’m pretty sure this is the fewest minutes Donovan’s ever played in a playoff game. No. Or non. Non Blowout Edition. Maybe I’m seeing here.

Chris Fedor: Yeah, maybe Non Blowout edition.

Jimmy Watkins: Non Blowout edition. Competitive playoff game. Pretty close.

Ethan Sands: He definitely played less than 30 in. In a couple of minutes.

Jimmy Watkins: I kind of glazed over all these 20 point wins and losses, but yeah, I’m seeing like 112, 102 Houston 34 minutes, 19 seconds. He played 33 something tonight. I just maybe a little more. If he can. If he can stand it and. And different kind like it’s. You can play more minutes and put in less work. That’s possible as well.

Ethan Sands: Can you. If you’re Donovan Mitchell, I don’t think he’s wired that way. I don’t. I don’t think he has it.

Jimmy Watkins: We’re talking about, like, we’re, we are talking on the, the show about how we didn’t, we’re not loving the approach that he took 30 shots. Now, whether he, he might be right to, to have concluded that, yeah, I need to do this tonight. And it just didn’t work out because he didn’t have the jumper. 13. 13 for 20 inside the arc, though, or maybe 12 for 20. I’m bad at math. 12 for 20 inside, inside the arc. That’s very good. It’s just, that’s, that’s a lot. That’s very taxing. Deciding I want to take over the game. That’s very taxing. And you want, and of course you want him to be able to have the reserve in the tank to feel like he can do that, because you’re going to need him to do that sometimes, but different, different ways to skin the rest. Cat.

Chris Fedor: I guess the other thing that, that I have a problem with in terms of the 30 shot attempts is Donovan’s dealing with the best defender and the Pacers. So, like, is there another matchup that you feel like you can better exploit? And I know that not everybody on this basketball team is Donovan Mitchell and capable like Donovan Mitchell, especially on the offensive end of the floor, but there are other, more favorable matchups for the Cavs that they could potentially explore on the offensive end of the floor. And one of them, I think, as Jimmy mentioned, is Evan Mobley. I think another one’s Jared Allen. Jarrett’s obviously reliant on his teammates creating those shots for him, but if Donovan’s going to draw the attention of the defense, then that could be a way to create more favorable offense for Jared or for Evan Mobley or something like that.

Ethan Sands: Chris, last question for you before we wrap up Today’s podcast for DeAndre Hunter. Because of the finger hand injury that he says he’ll still be able to play through, do you know which hand it was?

Chris Fedor: I was talking to him after he seemed to say it was his. Say it was right. I think it was his right index finger.

Ethan Sands: That’s a shooting hand, is it not?

Chris Fedor: I think it was his right index finger.

Ethan Sands: Right. So I just think it’s something to keep an eye on, something to monitor. And I said before the series that I thought DeAndre Hunter was going to be the most important player for the Cavs in this series. So I think you guys are absolutely right to want more of him, give me more of him, as Ashley said earlier. But I just think everybody has to step up, obviously, like very small minded take like Donovan shouldn’t have to feel like he has to take 30 shots. Ty Jerome who also didn’t have it going shouldn’t feel like he has to take 20 shots. Like that shouldn’t be how the offense goes. And I think the, the biggest thing that Kenny Atkinson was saying was that the ball got sticky. The ball has hasn’t gotten sticky almost all year, right? The assists have been the free flowing offense have been the biggest portion of how the Cows have had success this year. And yet in game one against the the fast paced offense, the high profile offense of the Indiana Pacers, things slowed down ironically for the Cavs. They got stuck in half court situations.

Chris Fedor: I think here’s a question that I have more surprised at the Cavs having an offensive rating of of about 112ish or more surprised that they had a defensive rating of around 121ish.

Ethan Sands: Offense.

Jimmy Watkins: Offense for me for sure. Yeah, I think we all, everyone knows the Patriots can score. I think we all just thought the Cavs would do it better.

Ethan Sands: Frankly.

Chris Fedor: I also think some people came into the series saying, well, the Cavs are better on defense than Indy is on defense. So the Cavs have a better chance of slowing down Indy’s offense than the Pacers do of slowing down the Cavs offense.

Ethan Sands: I don’t think that’s, I don’t think that’s far fetched. I don’t think that’s far fetched which.

Jimmy Watkins: Goes into controlling the pace because like if you’re, if you get into Indiana’s game, they actually are a darn good transition defense team because that’s, that’s, they’ve built the ship out of it so they, if you’re playing their game, they’re really freaking good at that game.

Ethan Sands: Yeah, I mean I, for me, offense obviously number one offense in the regular season and then sure it was against Miami, but you put up the best offensive rating against the Miami heat in the first round. You don’t think there’s going to be a 20 point different drop off from series one to series two. So I definitely think the offense and as we’ve talked on this podcast a lot, the law of averages says that the Cavs are going to bounce back and have a better game tomorrow or better game on Tuesday. They just have to do it right and actually see if that comes true. But anything else from the peanut gallery before we wrap up today’s episode?

Jimmy Watkins: Nope.

Chris Fedor: I got enough.

Ethan Sands: Righty. With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, but remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Remember when I said that we were texting throughout the game, giving insight on the background after the games? That’s where you get this information that is not readily available on different social media platforms. X formerly Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, wherever Subtext gets more insight, more depth and directly to your phone. So to get this insight, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page Page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the cast from me, Chris, Jimmy and Ashley. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.

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